Messaging helps customers and prospects understand a company’s value and values—how it can help and what it believes in. It describes the brand promise and generates desire for the company’s products and services. The best messaging gets people excited and rallies them together around a common cause. Today I’m talking with Mark Huber, Director of Growth at Metadata, a demand generation platform. Mark led the Metadata team through a messaging process that has been extremely successful, and he has some fantastic insights to share.
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(4:45) Effective messaging speaks more to the customer’s needs than about the company itself.
The messaging that Metadata had at that point in time didn’t really speak to what the platform was capable of doing for me. It spoke to the technical capabilities of the platform; it was very inwardly focused; and it was all about Metadata. So it’s not to say that it wasn’t inaccurate, but it was very self-fulfilling. I realized that customers were having a much different experience using the tool than our messaging was shouting from the rooftops.
(7:38) To better understand your audience, ask open-ended questions of your customers and potential customers to learn how they describe your company and the problem you solve.
I met with customers and potential customers and pulled up the messaging and got their initial response.Then I was very intentional about the questions that I was asking, to let the other person do all of the talking instead of me just grilling them. I asked them: How would you describe Metadata to other marketers in your network? How would you describe Metadata to your family and friends? And where does the current messaging fall short?
(11:29) Before you spend too much time figuring out your exact wording and brand voice, nail down the right themes and pain points for your messaging to focus on.
After that, I went back in and found the common themes and pain points that kept coming up in all of these different conversations, and boiled it down to 8-10 points that came up consistently. Then I would go back to the people who were giving the best constructive feedback and ask if those points landed with them. I was not trying to focus on the actual wording and tone of voice just yet. I wanted to make sure those were the most important things that our messaging needed to hammer home and reinforce.
(16:21) Do not start with your design first and then update the messaging as you go. Figure out the messaging first, then the design.
My original plan was to start with the website, and then update the messaging as I was working on the website. Had I have done that, this would have failed miserably, and we probably still would be fleshing out the messaging. Instead, we actually put a website redesign project on hold until we figured out the messaging. I think the biggest reason why both the messaging and the site have landed so well is because we knew what we wanted to say before we redesigned the website.
(18:39) Present your research as early as possible, so that you can involve company leaders in what the market really wants and needs, instead of framing it as your own advice.
One big mistake I made was not sharing with our CEO what the market was saying sooner. Sharing this information takes you out of the process by focusing on what the market is saying, not what the marketing team thinks the company should be saying.
(20:05) Test your messaging with audiences of varying degrees of familiarity with your company or product.
If you create this little spectrum of people who know Metadata really well to people who don’t know Metadata at all, there’s value in getting constructive feedback from each of those groups. Some of the pieces of feedback that they shared were consistent. Some were not. But it’s really good to have that balance.
(20:55) Conducting your research is a serious time commitment, but it pays off in the long run. And it may not require as much time as you’d think — you don’t need to interview 100+ people to get useful feedback.
I interviewed about 20 people, and I probably talked to them 30 or 40 times total, in addition to listening to call recordings. I would ask our sales team to create playlists of the best calls that they had and the worst calls that they had, trying to get some balance between what good looks like and what bad looks like. Would we have gotten a better result if we had interviewed many more people? Maybe, but the results that we got from the people we did interview were enough to get accurate, useful feedback.
(27:49) Be transparent. You don’t have to have everything together before communicating with your audience.
We had to start promoting the event before all the details were finalized. We’re still trying to finalize the few small details today and the rest of the week. It’s important to be open about that, just being raw and honest and authentic about not having everything together yet, but confident that we will by the time of the event. Be raw, be honest, be authentic, and I think your audience will not only appreciate that, but respond really, really well.
(Laura 0:51) Thanks so much for coming on the show today, Mark! I’m really looking forward to hearing your insights on messaging.
(Mark 1:43) Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be talking with you.
(Laura) Awesome. So for those who may be new to you, could you share just a little bit about Metadata? And also tell us a little bit about your role there as Director of Growth?
(Mark 1:57) Yep. So I’ll get started with Metadata first. I think the market sees us right now as an ABM platform. And what we’re trying to do is show them that ABM platforms are not really a thing. You can do ABM, but you can’t necessarily buy ABM. So what we do is we consider ourselves to be a demand generation platform. So you can launch campaigns across different paid channels, and with our platform, those campaigns will self-optimize using your data in Salesforce so that they’re optimizing to revenue and pipeline — the things that you care about, and your boss and your boss’s boss care about — instead of clicks and reach and impressions and engagement and all the things that ABM platforms have said that we should be measuring.
(Laura 2:36) Awesome. And I love the self-optimization. I feel like that’s where things are headed, especially now, you know, like you said, with all the data that is available, how to actually make that happen. So that’s very cool.
(Mark 2:49) I promise that wasn’t planted; we did not talk about this before. But something that you mentioned we will definitely talk about later on in this, because it was a big part of our old messaging and how we need to pivot from that. So we’re already thinking the same way.
(Mark) The other thing that I didn’t talk through yet was just the role of Director of Growth. I’m self-deprecating. I try to laugh through the workday. And what I tried to tell people when they ask, you know, “You’re Director of Growth, what does that mean?” It’s a fancy way of saying I’m the number two marketer at Metadata. So if I were at a slightly larger company, I think that title would mean something a little bit more specifically, being, you know, all-around growth and experimentation. And it’s not to say that I don’t do those things at Metadata in my role, but I’ve got my hands pretty much in every single facet of our marketing.
(Laura 3:33) Nice, nice. Sometimes that’s a really nice place to be. In a company of your size, it’s large enough to really make an impact. But being able to be involved in a lot of different things, you have a very broad perspective, which I think is an asset in a lot of cases.
(Mark 3:49) Yeah, whenever I try to describe to my parents or family and friends what I do, I think the easiest way to describe it is I’m getting a little marketing MBA, just given all the different things that I’m working on, you know, day in, day out. So I love the depth of the role and everything that I’m doing. And, to be totally honest, messaging and positioning is something I had not done at all prior to Metadata. So it was a pretty big learning curve for me, too.
(Laura 4:15) Interesting, yeah. Well, the Metadata messaging is super clear. It has a very distinct point of view. And that’s one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you today, because the voice really is unique. It’s very clear. Especially in the B2B space, you don’t see that a lot. So I’m really excited to hear the insights that you have to share with us. But before we dive into the specifics, I’d love to hear a little bit about what first prompted you to start the process when you did.
(Mark 4:45) Yep. So I was actually a Metadata customer at my last company. And I had looked at some of the traditional — I’m using air quotes since we’re not on video — ABM platforms, and had even used some of them before in previous roles. And I didn’t look at Metadata until really the 11th hour, and I ended up bringing Metadata on board. So I tell you that because the messaging that Metadata had at that point in time, which was right around December 2019 – January 2020, didn’t really speak to what the platform was capable of doing for me. It spoke to the technical capabilities of the platform; it was very inwardly focused; and it was all about Metadata. So it’s not to say that it wasn’t inaccurate, but it was very self-fulfilling.
And after I joined Metadata in August of 2020, like any good marketer, I was listening in on call recordings, I was trying to talk to people in our ICP, and the more and more that I heard from our customers, the more that I realized that they were having a much different experience using the tool than our messaging was kind of shouting from the rooftops. So that’s when the lightbulb moment went on for me that, hey, you know — I kind of call these “oh shit” moments or “holy shit” moments. And if you were to listen on some of our call recordings, there’s at least, you know, two, three, four of those on each demo at minimum. So I was trying to think of, for lack of a better way of explaining it, how do you facilitate those, you know, “holy shit” moments before you are getting somebody on the phone? And that’s what led me to rework the messaging.
(Laura 6:28) Interesting, yeah. Well, that’s a really unique situation to be in, as being a customer and identifying, oh, these people need help in this way. That’s really interesting.
(Mark 6:38) Well, it was also — I wouldn’t change it for the world, but the onboarding process was very different. Because on day one, I was expected to already know a lot of what I needed to be doing, because I was a customer for, you know, nine and a half months. So let’s just say there wasn’t much of a learning curve, and I was thrown to the wolves immediately.
(Laura 6:58) Yeah, positives and negatives for sure.
(Laura) So what did your process look like? Were you working off of a specific framework? Or how did you actually go about putting together the messaging?
(Mark 7:09) So what I did was I paid attention to a few product marketers that I follow on LinkedIn, like Product Marketing Alliance and Sharebird. There’s a ton of really good product marketing stuff out there. And what I wanted to do — and I’m giving away my secrets here — I kind of steal a lot, and I put my own spin on it. I think you have to be willing to steal and put your own spin on it to be a good marketer. So basically, what I was trying to do was I was trying to take the best of everything that I liked from each of those different resources.
And what I netted out to was I decided to meet with around 20 different B2B marketers in our ICP. So I met with some of our customer advisory board members. I met with some of our best customers. I met with some of our new customers. I met with prospects that were in pipeline. And then I also used a tool called Wynter.com for a completely cold audience. And what I was trying to do was just get conversation started with the actual people that I was meeting with and pull up the messaging, and just have them kind of look at it and get their initial response. Then I had around, I’d say, three-ish questions.
And I was very intentional about the questions that I was asking, to let the other person do all of the talking instead of me just grilling them, you know, line by line. And from there, the questions that I was using were: How would you describe Metadata to other marketers in your network? How would you describe Metadata to your family and friends? And then, three, where does the current messaging fall short? And I tried to keep it simple to start, and gathered and documented a ton of findings from those interviews that gave me a really, really solid starting point.
(Laura 9:00) Awesome. So, I’m curious, the call recording and the interviews — Wynter, I have actually heard of that; that seems like a really cool platform — those are all awesome. And I’m curious, was there also a lot of collaboration with the sales team? How did you actually, you know, work with other team members to kind of get their perspective in the process?
(Mark 9:22) Basically, what I would do is I kind of grouped it out into, let’s say, three-ish phases. That first phase that I just ran you through was getting what’s called market feedback. And from there, I went and took all of the notes, and kind of, I would say, common themes and pain points and just things that we needed to address from those interviews, then I shared that with the sales team to get their initial feedback on it.
(Laura 9:50) Interesting.
(Mark) Because the whole goal, or one of the biggest goals, for me in doing all of this was trying to use language that our own customers and prospects are using, not the language that we as Metadata wanted to use or our sales team was using. So it was interesting to share with the sales team, you know, hey, these are kind of the big pain points that are really resonating with our audience. How close are these pain points to the pain points that you’re talking through on your initial discovery calls? And there was some really good back-and-forth, and I think it opened up some eyes of our sales team to that, hey, you know, maybe the pain points that we thought were most important to address are more important to us than they are our end user.
(Laura 10:31) Ah, yes. That’s actually a brilliant strategy, because a lot of times, since sales is so close to the customers — I mean, they can be an amazing resource. They usually are. But there are usually, you know, blind spots that are difficult to identify. And this process that you’ve used does a really good job of identifying those. So that’s really cool.
(Mark 10:51) Yeah. It was tough, too, because for me, we were doing well at the time. We had a small sales team, and we’ve since grown. So what I didn’t want to do is go, you know, “Hey, sales team, you’re pitching Metadata the wrong way.” Because clearly, they were already doing something that was working. It was more so, “Hey, take Mark out of the equation here, and let’s just look at what the people who you are selling to are saying and thinking about Metadata.” And it was easier to say, “Hey, this is what the market’s saying,” instead of, “Hey, this is what Mark thinks you should do to your pitch.”
(Laura 11:21) Right. Awesome. So what was the next step, then, after you gathered that information?
(Mark 11:29) A lot of crying. A lot of not sleeping. I would be lying if I said it was easy, because it was not easy. But what I would do was, after that, I went back in and found the common themes and pain points that kept coming up in all of these different conversations. And then tried to boil down, alright, you know, there could have been, let’s say, 20-25 different pain points, yet of those there were, you know, 8-10 that kept coming up consistently.
So I would try and refine the messaging, and not spend too much time on it, but then go back to, I’d say the best interviews that I had and the people that were giving like the best constructive feedback. And then get them to react to, “Alright, hey, we heard all of this, but this is what we’re hearing the most. Does this land with you?” And at that time, I was not trying to focus on the actual wording and tone of voice just yet. It was more so like, let’s make sure these are the most important things that our messaging needs to hammer home and reinforce.
(Laura 12:34) Right, right. Yeah, basically like creating that foundation before you dive in. I mean, the creative part is the fun part, right? So a lot of people, you know?
(Mark 12:43) That’s one way to put it. No, I’m kidding.
(Laura) Yeah, so I feel like laying that foundation is super important before you actually start messing with the wording and developing that voice.
But yeah, let’s talk about that. Once you got to that point, how did you go about developing the voice? Because I feel like the brand voice really is extremely effective. It is very down-to-earth, very transparent, which is super refreshing, you know, in marketing. How did you actually develop the voice?
(Mark 13:13) Yeah. So it’s a really interesting question. And it’s come up a couple times lately from, ironically enough, other marketers that I’ve been talking to for campaign feedback for some of the stuff that we’re launching here soon. So for me — I have no shame in admitting this: I’m a huge Dave Gerhardt fanboy. So I think I was a decent writer. I’m hard on myself. I’d say I was a pretty good writer for a marketer, up until I started following Dave a few years ago. And for me, I try to not look at our competitors too much, because I don’t want to get too focused on, you know, what are they doing, what should we be doing, and making choices that way. And all I did was I looked at their messaging. And without, you know, naming our direct competitors, you could cover up the logo on some of their websites, and if you read the messaging, it all sounds the same. So for me, I looked at it as a huge opportunity to stick out in the sea of same, and put some personality into it.
So in a lot of ways, I’d say the voice started out with my own personality for, like, what I think accurately represents Metadata. And it has grown in time in that I think at first it was pretty daunting, because I did not know if that tone was going to land. But as I was previewing this out with the different people that I’d interviewed, they were like, this is amazing. This is different. It feels like I’m talking to a friend. It’s informal. My high school English teacher would probably freak out if she saw this, but like, we’re people at the end of the day. So you need to talk to people as people. I’m not a different B2B person when I start work everyday. I’m the same person inside of work as I am outside of work. So how do you come up with a tone that captures that? And it’s been really, really well received so far.
(Laura 15:04) Awesome. Yeah, that’s what I was gonna ask. How was it received, the feedback that you got? I mean, it sounds like it was, you know, right on target.
(Mark 15:12) Yep. So, once I figured out the tone, I would say, that’s when I started to look at, alright, if these are the pain points and these are the capabilities that we have, how do we kind of fuse the two together? And what I did was I would share with that subset of people that I met with, alright, here’s the second version. Here’s the third version. Does this land? How do you feel when you’re reading this? And it was overwhelmingly positive. So I think that, coupled with using Wynter.com to test that messaging and, really, the tone against a cold audience, I got really encouraging feedback there. So I’d be lying if I said I was nervous about the messaging when we launched it. Because I felt like I had, you know, done as much as I could, in terms of like testing this out against a smaller focus group, that I felt pretty confident that it was going to land. Now, I’d be lying if I said, you know, I think it’s gonna land this well. That was a bit of a surprise. But I did feel like I did my homework on our audience.
(Laura 16:15) Awesome. Yeah. I mean, it definitely sounds like it. It’s a very robust research process, which is awesome.
(Mark 16:21) Now, the one thing that I think is — if there’s, I’d say, a single takeaway to take away from this podcast for anybody who’s listening — my original plan was to start with the website, and then update the messaging as I was working on the website. Had I have done that, this would have failed miserably, and we probably still would be fleshing out the messaging. So what I did was I forgot about the website. I said, do not worry about the website at all. We actually put a website redesign project on hold until we figured out the messaging. Because I think the biggest reason why this landed so well, and really, the site has landed so well, is because we knew what we wanted to say before we redesigned the website.
(Laura 17:03) That is such a good point, because so often it starts with the design, and then people are trying to like plug in…
(Mark) Do not do that. Absolutely not.
(Laura) Yes. Yeah, that’s really interesting. I’m glad to hear you say that. You know, as a messaging person, a copywriting person, that’s really encouraging to hear. Yeah, because I mean, at the end of the day — I mean, definitely not discounting the impact of design. But it really is the messaging that, you know, communicates what the value is, and hits those pain points, and really drives it home.
(Mark 17:35) Yeah, and I think we work with an awesome agency, Alger. I love giving him a shout out, just because he and his team are pretty good at what they do. The website redesign process went much smoother than it could have gone had I been asking them to design the site, and then I would write the copy. So they were very, very happy with how it went as well, because the two really complemented each other and fit together.
(Laura 18:01) Very cool. So I would love to hear the advice, any advice that you would have to share with other SaaS marketing teams who are either, you know, in the process of reworking their messaging or, you know, have an initiative coming up. What mistakes would you say to avoid, or lessons learned that people should be sure to take into account?
(Mark 18:20) Yep, so I definitely made plenty of them along the way of doing this. So I’d say the first one, like I mentioned earlier, is do not start with the website. Start with understanding your audience first, and then use that to, you know, revamp the messaging. And once you have the messaging down, then entertain redoing the website.
The second real big mistake that I made was — so Gil Allouche, our CEO and founder of Metadata, he’s an engineer turned marketer. So the original messaging was very tech-focused. And like I said earlier, it wasn’t inaccurate. But the focus of the messaging was on Metadata and on the, you know, tech and the feature functionality. So in some ways, it was me telling him, hey, your baby, you know, needs a makeover. I didn’t say the baby was ugly, but what I did wrong was that I didn’t get him involved sooner in the process. And I didn’t share what the market was saying, sooner. Now I got him involved later on, and I shared a lot of those findings with him so that he could see this isn’t Mark just going on a hunch. This is grounded against market research, if you want to call it that. So it ended up going smoothly towards the end of it, but it was pretty rocky there because I was not getting him as involved as early as I should have. So I would say whether it’s sales, you know, your CEO’s going to be very interested and want to be involved in this. It’s get them involved sooner, and share with them the findings from those customer and prospect interviews. Because then it takes you out of the process and it’s instead focusing on what the market is saying, not what the marketing team thinks we should be saying.
(Laura 20:05) Yeah, and that’s a really good insight.
(Mark) And then the last piece was just to make sure that you are interviewing people and testing your messaging against different audiences and varying degrees of, let’s say, awareness or familiarity with your company and your product. Because if you create this little spectrum of people who know Metadata really well to people who don’t know Metadata at all, there’s value in getting constructive feedback from each of those groups. Some of the pieces of feedback that they shared were consistent. Some were not. But it’s really good to have that balance.
(Laura 20:44) Yeah, that’s a great point, too. So that also brings up something else. I’m just curious, how many interviews and, you know, calls and all of that, did you listen to? Like, what is the number of…?
(Mark 20:55) Yep. So I would say, in terms of actual interviews that I did, I interviewed about 20 people, and I probably talked to them, over zoom or over a phone call, maybe close to — wow — 30, 40 times total, in addition to listening to call recordings. So what I would do was I would ask our sales team to just create playlists of the best calls that they had and the worst calls that they had. And again, trying to get some balance between what good looks like and what bad looks like. For those calls, the recordings, I probably listened to, I would say, you know, maybe close to 40-ish of those. So like, it is a serious time commitment. But I think putting that upfront work in makes the process run smoother and takes less time. There are, you know, really good agencies and consulting firms out there that can do this sort of thing, and they charge an arm and a leg for it, and it takes them a really long time. We did not have time, we did not have budget, and we did not have patience to wait for that. So it is a beast of an effort, don’t get me wrong. But I think the more time that you put in up front, the smoother that it will run at the end.
(Laura 22:10) Yeah. And that’s interesting, too, because, you know, it is a pretty big number, a lot of time investment. But I think a lot of times people think, oh, we need hundreds of people, you know, participating in order to get accurate feedback. But I have found the same thing that you have. You know, really, 20 to 40 different conversations, you really start seeing the themes and the overlaps. And, you know, after a while you’re like, okay, everybody is saying the same thing here, here, and here. This is really where we need to focus.
(Mark 22:38) Yeah, it’s funny that you say that, because one of our advisors, I was asking him, hey, you know, how did you guys go about this when you were first starting out? And they are a little later stage of a company than we are, have more funding, and could afford this: he shared a deck with me that was about 175-ish pages long with findings from their 150+ interviews. And as soon as I saw that, I just felt so defeated, thinking to myself, oh my god, is this what I have to do? Like, I’m never going to make it out alive. So I share that funny story because you don’t have to do that. Now, would we have gotten a better result if we interviewed that many people? Maybe, but we cut that by, you know, 75%, and I think it still worked out just as well as it would have had we interviewed, you know, as many of those people.
(Laura 23:33) Right. And I mean, like you said, your results speak for themselves. So is there anything else that I should have asked you, but didn’t? Anything else that you would like to share related to messaging?
(Mark 23:45) I would say the biggest thing is trying to write like you talk. Now, we’re lucky in a sense that we’re a Series A, soon to be, you know, Series B startup in time, that I can kind of shape a lot of this myself. But I think there are so many companies out there that are using super formal messaging, and overly buttoned up, and it doesn’t all need to be that way. I think, in B2B, I’m a big fan of saying B2B doesn’t have to be boring. I think you’re missing out if you are trying to use messaging that is so buttoned up that it feels like you’re reading from a script. If you can infuse some personality into it, you’re already a step or two ahead of your competitors, assuming that they’re not doing that, because it’s just so different and so refreshing. So I would say, do anything that you can to infuse personality and help you stick out for the right reasons.
(Laura 24:43) Yeah, that’s a great, great point, and so important. And especially because, like you said, it will make you stand out, because hardly anyone else is doing that.
(Mark 24:51) Yeah. And I think if I were to start this process, let’s say tomorrow, I would say there are so many good resources out there. From Sharebird, from Product Marketing Alliance, from, you know, some of the product marketing podcasts that are out there. And the best part is most of this stuff is free. And some of this stuff, you know, costs a little bit of money, but you don’t truly need to pay these crazy agency fees to do this. And I think for me personally — and Jason Widup, our Head of Marketing would probably agree — there was so much value in having these conversations firsthand with customers and truly talking to them, and understanding, you know, what their day-to-day is like, as opposed to letting agencies have those conversations for you. And that was worth the amount of time and effort and tears that went into this project 10 times over.
(Laura 25:45) Very cool. So before we go, you have an awesome looking virtual event coming up focused on demand gen. And you have a great lineup of speakers, including Dave Gerhardt, which you’ve already mentioned, and April Dunford. I am super excited to attend myself. So can you share just a little bit with listeners about what to expect and where they can sign up for that?
(Mark 26:08) Yep, so the easy part is you can go to our website, and you’ll see there’s a popup that will come up to register for DEMAND. The URL is metadata.io/demand-2021. Now, why we did the event — and this is kind of a core belief in all of our marketing — is we want to do marketing that we ourselves would respond well to. And I say that because virtual events, there’s been a million of them, probably more, since this little thing called COVID came into our world last year. And, you know, were some of those events good? Yeah. Were a lot of the events mediocre? Also yeah. So what we were trying to do was put together an event that we would be interested in attending as attendees, and really trying to be intentional around who we were curating as both speakers and topics. So we have, you know, the likes of Dave Gerhardt, April Dunford, David Cancel, Manny Medina, Kyle Lacy — a bunch of up and coming names, who will soon be those big names that you’ll learn from on October 22 and in the years to follow in B2B marketing.
And the whole theme for the event is getting closer to revenue. So I think the best marketers right now are measuring themselves using revenue and pipeline, and it’s such a big shift in not just what you’re measuring, but your behaviors and the tactics and the programs that you’re running. And you can’t do that overnight. If you do, it’s probably not going to work well. So what we wanted to do with this event was put together an agenda that will help people move from where they are today, and get them closer to pipeline and revenue. Because that’s what the best marketers are doing.
(Laura 27:45) I love it. Yeah, I’m excited. I’m really pumped.
(Mark 27:49) I will be pumped on October 22 at like 4:00 or 5:00 pm, when it’s all over, because this has been my… this is what keeps me up at night.
And I think the one kind of closing thought on this — and I think it definitely lends itself well to what we talked about in our messaging — we are so transparent in all of our marketing and in our messaging and what we’re doing with this event. And we had to start promoting the event before all the details were finalized. We’re still trying to finalize, you know, the few small details today and the rest of the week. And I think, being open about that, and just being raw and honest and authentic about, you know, hey, we don’t have everything buttoned up, but you can guarantee that we will by this event, and we can guarantee that you will be impressed by this event. The response to that has been better than my wildest dreams. So like I said, you know, B2B doesn’t have to be boring. Be raw, be honest, be authentic, and I think your audience will not only appreciate that, but respond really, really well.
(Laura 28:48) Yes. I mean, it is so refreshing. And I feel like it gives people a lot of confidence in you. Because if you’re that honest, they know that, here’s what they can expect rather than, oh, this person is just, you know, blowing smoke.
(Mark 29:02) Exactly. Exactly.
(Laura 29:03) Yeah. Very cool. Well, thank you so much for coming on. I have learned a lot. I know the listeners will take away many lessons from this. So thanks so much for coming on, Mark.
(Mark 29:14) Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. This was good.